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LC Sharkey (they/them)'s avatar

Thanks for this, Rey! I am with you - I get why/how the term "woman-identified" came about, but I don't quite get what it is supposed to mean. To me, it sounds like either it refers to someone who is a woman ( in which case, why not just call them that?), or it refers to someone that the person using the term perceives as a woman (in which case, it's harmfully presumptive and shouldn't be used).

This sticky problem of inclusivity and separate space is a big one, and we need to have lots of discussions about it. I agree with your assessment that if a space is for "women only" it is not inclusive, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing, as long as the space holders are honest and transparent about who the space is for. I'd much rather know that I'm not included than think that I am only to find out that I wasn't even considered by those who decided who the space should be for.

You brought up a very important idea: yes, we need to be willing and able to say when/if a space is not open to cis men. In the same way that white people need to learn to not assume they will be welcome in spaces intended for BIPOC, cis men need to learn to not assume they will be welcome anywhere they want to go. While I agree that ultimately, we need all genders included equally, that is nowhere near the reality right now, and people who are not cis men have a right to sometimes have spaces where they can feel reasonably sure they won't have to grapple with the presence of privileged entitlement. Just as I, as a white person, cannot honestly guarantee I won't unintentionally invoke a racist attitude or belief among BIPOC, even the most educated, sensitive cis man cannot honestly guarantee that they won't unintentionally say or do something that perpetuates gender marginalization, and it can be very healing for us to sometimes get a break from the incessant threat of that marginalization.

There is a distinct difference between a marginalized group creating separate space for the sake of relief from ever-present marginalization, and a dominant group creating space that is either intentionally or ignorantly unwelcoming to marginalized people. We need to have room for both bridge-building and protected spaces, and we should not be afraid to say who is being excluded and why. If our reasons for excluding are to make a space safer for marginalized folks, there's no reason not to say so. And if our reasons are not equitable, we need to be honest about them in order to learn what we need to learn to stop excluding.

I've said this before, but I think it bears repeating: we are, as a society, in an acute "growing pains" stage of awareness regarding gender. A lot has changed culturally in the last few decades, and especially the last few years, and none of the dust has really settled yet. I am glad for writers like you because I do believe what we really need is lots of spaces where people feel that they are allowed to ask questions or start conversations about gender-related topics that seem strange or confusing. I know that many non-cis people get tired of educating cis people about gender, and I hope that cis people respect that. That being said, those questions have to be answered for dominant culture to get comfortable enough with the nuances of gender to be willing to be allies for us. So people like you, who are not just willing, but proactively educating and starting discussions, are invaluable, and I thank you for taking that on.

I'm with you and Anastasia about the nonbinary spaces. I would love to have that once in a while, and hope that it would be not just nonbinary, but also agender-inclusive.

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River Selby (they/them)'s avatar

Love this, Rey!! This is something I struggle with and I share many of your opinions and thoughts. I also find it so hard to express how it feels to move through the world as "woman" (bc people perceive me as a woman) and to express my individual experience as nonbinary. I don't get the "women-identified" thing either. Like- if someone identifies as a woman then call them a woman!!

Many "women only" spaces were created as a safer space for women, but aren't safe for ppl like you and I. Lately I've been thinking about creating exclusively nonbinary spaces. Liminal spaces. I think that's a space I'd like to exist in.

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